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It includes things like the Immaculate Conception of Mary and the infallibility of the pope. It was the Catholic Church that first taught the Protestants that the Bible was the Word of God.The Church produced this book, then handed it to believers, and said this is the Word of God.It is infallible and inerrant. The vast majority wished to make use of the Forums for free. Seeing this requires a careful reading of the pastoral epistles. : Look at 1 Timothy 1:10–11 again. But now that Scripture is complete, that “pattern of sound words” is found in the New Testament and we no longer need oral Tradition. distinction to say that one thing (content) applies while the other (process) does not? If you can agree to focus on this doctrinal Tradition for a moment, we can discuss its grounding in Scripture and history. The scriptures mentioned here by Paul are the same scriptures which the Bereans examined?the Old Testament scriptures. I tried to move to a Catholic region (Miami) but the recession is too brutal for a move. Now after all these things, do Protestants truly believe in the Bible alone? Please only use Scripture. Sometimes, the emphasis seems to fall on the, of what is taught. The New Testament Canon that Christians of all denominations enjoy was first offered by Bishop Athanasius of Alexandria in 367AD. CATHOLIC: Well, look at it this way: If you can show that this dogmatic Tradition is false or harmful to the Christian, it follows by implication that the lesser traditions should go by the wayside too. Such an extension wouldn’t be much of a leap. And do these Bible alone Christians follow a certain leader or pastor or preacher? Theres more but i;m sure thios answers your question. If we limit ourselves to quoting selected verses, we will probably miss the deeper meaning of Paul’s words. The normal word for “sufficient” in Greek that Paul uses elsewhere is hikanos. But we can legitimately extend Paul’s words in verses 16 and 17 to the New Testament as well. Being OF God - i.e., God’s very WORD, Sacred/Holy Scriptures nonetheless form a Foundational part of what the Church IS… Nevertheless, the position of the Church is that Scripture is … When we add to the inconclusive value of the forums, the significant cost in financial resources and personnel time to host, operate, and to what degree we can, govern them, Catholic Answers can no longer justify the effort. Inevitably, we must point to specific verses, but they must be understood in the context of the whole. of Tradition certainly does. 1. Don’t you agree that this is what Paul is saying? “The Bible Alone” theory has led to people almost worshiping the bible in book form, while at the same time ignoring a lot of the things the bible says are necessary for salvation. 1:13). OBJECTOR: Agreed. Paul is telling Timothy and Titus the same truth. Every Christian should pay careful attention to the Roman Catholic challenge that the Bible alone is not the only Word of God. So I got stuck in the Bible Belt. Now with Google Translator for non … But a close examination of the context suggests that it is not the Bible that Paul is referring to. I have made the decision to close the CAF after lengthy consultation with the Catholic Answers executive committee and board of trustees. You are justified by Faith Alone. We certainly would not want to argue a positive case from silence, but neither should those who assume the thief was not baptized (the Bible doesn’t report the apostles’ baptisms either!). : Absolutely—Scripture is important in Paul’s teaching. Even though Old Testament Scripture predicted the coming of Christ, the fullness of the gospel came to Paul by revelation, as Paul says explicitly in Galatians 1:12: “For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”, So the “sound words” that Timothy and Titus are to hold to is the, transmission of the gospel that Paul had taught them. Please visit www.catholic.com to search the largest database of Catholic answers. P.S. See this page in: French, Portuguese, Spanish. 2 Thess. So how can Paul be referring them to Tradition? Note that this is just knowledge, and not actual realized salvation. Artificial reproductive technologies, roman catholic books the new understandings of chronicles. On the one hand, there are many traditions in the church that are not binding on its members, such as praying the rosary. Scripture certainly has the power to do all the things that this verse says. Anti-Catholic, "Bible Alone" Christians: How do you know your New Testament Canon is correct? : I am afraid that I don’t see the relevance of these verses to your doctrine of Tradition. In particular, 1 Timothy 1:10 seems to emphasize the content when it speaks of “whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine.”. Note: In an effort to accurately represent the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, references are cited from an authoritative source, the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, imprimatur from eminent Cardinal … 1 Tim. It is a composite of holy Scripture that all … The vast majority wished to make use of the Forums for free. … Here is mine. This … CATHOLIC: Yes, it’s normal to cite 2 Timothy 3:16–17 in arguing that Scripture alone is sufficient for the Christian today.Let me explain why the Catholic Church does not agree. Read 2 Timothy 1:13–14 carefully: “Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.” Now the phrase “sound words” or “sound teaching” occurs seven times in the pastoral epistles (cf. Take 2 Timothy 3:16–17, for example: “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”. CATHOLIC: Absolutely—Scripture is important in Paul’s teaching. We believe that the oral traditions passed down through the history of the Church are necessary, but it is important to distinguish between two uses of the word, : It’s doctrinal or dogmatic Tradition—tradition with a big. CATHOLIC: Yes, that’s probably the scope of his reference. : Yes, that’s probably the scope of his reference. The church is not defined by the bible; it is quite the other way around. Advent Apologetics: Is There Any Evidence outside of the Bible That Jesus Was Real? A Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura In this article Dave Armstrong, author of A Biblical Defense of Catholicism, lists ten problems with the Protestant teaching of sola scriptura. I understand that the word "good" is interpreted subjectively. We should hold on to, that the apostles taught, whether it came in writing or in verbal form. But look more closely at what Paul is saying. ... And yet, we typically don’t do this—we simply assume that it’s up for us to decide, using the Bible alone … I am still Catholic, but I just don't have what it takes to date Catholics in my region. I thought it was only for us Catholics lol. THE PROBLEM OF SOLA SCRIPTURA (Scripture alone) that is the assertion held by most non-Catholic Christians that the Bible alone is the sole rule for the Christian faith. Catholic. One of the most common manifestations of desolation is that of loneliness—you feel alone in the world and nobody really seems to care about who you are and where you are heading in … Anyway, ask for the actual definition from Luther, from any Lutheran, where Luther actually defined what is meant by Bible alone… CATHOLIC: No, we shouldn’t add anything to God’s revelation. OBJECTOR: I am afraid that I don’t see the relevance of these verses to your doctrine of Tradition. If you would like to continue supporting the work of Catholic Answers, you can. In short, Catholics believe that the Bible is materially sufficient; it is “loose equipment without the instructions.” On this view, although the Bible is the perfect Word of God and is thereby … The normal word for “sufficient” in Greek that Paul uses elsewhere is, , which is closer to the meaning of “profitable” or “useful.” Something can be profitable without being sufficient. OBJECTOR: Sure. CatholicSamurai July 8, ... Every body is able to find out the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, and many other doctrines, just reading the Bible alone. But good as it is, the Bible, my dear friends, does not explain itself. Faith Alone. Recurring Patron donations will be discontinued on December 31. For example, there was a change in the requirements for fasting before receiving Holy Communion. But that does not mean that it is sufficient for every purpose. Thank you all for your support over the years and God bless. But the word that Paul uses here is profitable, not sufficient. The book of Jude contains some of the most mysterious and intriguing passages in the New Testament.One occurs when Jude warns against a group of Christians who have given … Catholics would agree that we are indeed saved by grace, which is a free gift from God. Sola fide, the idea that … CATHOLIC: There are several aspects to this question. Sola scriptura (by scripture alone in English) is a theological doctrine held by some Protestant Christian denominations that the Christian scriptures are the sole infallible source of authority for Christian faith and practice.. This is exactly what the Catholic Church believes we Christians should do. Even though Old Testament Scripture predicted the coming of Christ, the fullness of the gospel came to Paul by revelation, as Paul says explicitly in Galatians 1:12: “For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.”, So the “sound words” that Timothy and Titus are to hold to is the verbal transmission of the gospel that Paul had taught them. “The Bible Alone” theory has led to people almost worshiping the bible in book form, while at the same time ignoring a lot of the things the bible says are necessary for salvation. But before doing so, let me also clarify something about the nature of Tradition. There are certain Christians out there who believe in the Bible alone. The Bible Alone? Marty. Now with Google Translator for non-English speakers. That is why we insist on the importance of oral Tradition. CATHOLIC: The words for “tradition,” whether noun or verb, do not occur in these letters, but the concept of Tradition certainly does. Romans 13:7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. In fact, that is what the Catholic Church would say. Thus, today, all we need is Scripture. CATHOLIC: The Catholic Church believes that, in addition to the Bible, we need oral Tradition to know what the Bible teaches and to know the doctrines of the Christian faith that are not in the Bible, such as the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Not according to the Bible. Thes… Read 2 Timothy 1:13–14 carefully: “Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.” Now the phrase “sound words” or “sound teaching” occurs seven times in the pastoral epistles (cf. CATHOLIC: Your logic is sound, but the word translated in verse 17 as “complete” is artios, a word that can also be translated as “prepared.” Now, you will concede that there is a difference between being prepared and being complete. I don’t think any conscientious Christian would want to say that we don’t need the New Testament to have the kinds of teaching and reproof that Paul says in verse 16. But again, understand that Tradition (with a big T) is not an addition to the pure word of God. The Bible says you are NOT saved by faith alone. Inevitably, we must point to specific verses, but they must be understood in the context of the whole. The bible verses in question are when Paul says that we also believe in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by the faith of Christ and not by the works of the law (Gal 2:16), and when James says that faith apart from works is dead (James 2:26). If Paul views the Old Testament as Scripture sufficient for the purpose he enumerates in verse 16, we can certainly say that the apostle would agree with applying these same words to the New Testament. Even though I think the first kind of tradition is also detrimental to a Christian’s faith. Posts about Bible – Sola Scriptura written by answers4catholics. The bible alone position was started after the protestant reformation. These traditions are with a little t. OBJECTOR: So what’s the other kind of tradition? This can mean only the Old Testament. In fact, that is what the Catholic Church would say. Let me explain why the Catholic Church does not agree. He calls them “the pattern of sound words which you have heard from me” (2 Tim. A careful look shows that it is problematic to frame the Protestant-Catholic discussion of justification simply in terms of “faith alone” verses “faith and works.” This is an oversimplification that will lead Protestants to think that the Catholic … Doesnt Timothy 3:16-17, especially the part that I have bolded show that scripture alone is not only “profitable” but “sufficient”. Forum Elder. Saved by Maria Polyock. But a relationship with a Protestant woman is realistic for me here. Lots of great Catholic links too. If Paul views the Old Testament as Scripture sufficient for the purpose he enumerates in verse 16, we can certainly say that the apostle would agree with applying these same words to the New Testament. On Thursday December 31 at 5pm PT, Catholic Answers will close the Catholic Answers Forums (CAF). and N.T. Scripture is, because it is the written revelation of God himself. OBJECTOR: I don’t see anywhere in the pastoral epistles where Paul appeals to Tradition. po18guy. They take a literal interpretation of the Bible and do not attend any Church service. Catholic Answers executive committee and board of trustees. OBJECTOR: You need to attend to the context more carefully. Scripture certainly has the power to do all the things that this verse says. Now after all these things, do Protestants truly believe in the Bible alone? Evangelization Holy Card. Now, the theory of “The Bible Alone” — that is, following the Bible alone as the path to salvation — presupposes that the Bible should have been available to all men from the foundation of Christianity. : That’s contrary to the Bible, which says that Scripture is sufficient for life and godliness. CATHOLIC: Yes, it’s normal to cite 2 Timothy 3:16–17 in arguing that Scripture alone is sufficient for the Christian today. Catholic Bible 101 - The Five "Solas" - Catholicbible101 is the website that explains Catholic teachings in plain, easy to understand English. Paul exhorts them to hold on to his verbal teachings. Take Revelation 22:18, for example: “I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.” And 2 Timothy 3:16–17, which I quoted above, shows that it is Scripture that builds up the man of God, not human traditions, whether with a big. : I have no problem with the verses you cite because they were very applicable in a time when the New Testament was not yet completed. Verse 17 says, “that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.” If a man is to be complete, he must have available to him all that is necessary for his work. ), I would take Paul’s meaning to be that the Scriptures are useful and profitable for equipping the man of God for God’s work, not that they were intended to be sufficient for every purpose. But again, understand that Tradition (with a big, ) is not an addition to the pure word of God. CATHOLIC: A slow, attentive reading of the pastoral epistles reveals that Paul is exhorting Timothy and Titus to hold fast to that which they received verbally from Paul. Questions for Catholics and Orthodox: If the Roman Catholic church gave the world the Bible, being infallible, then why did Rome reject or question the inspiration of James and Hebrews, then later … Let me explain why the Catholic Church does not agree. It used to be all night from midnight to the time when one received Communion. A careful biblical interpreter must pay attention to context. Shop for Evangelization Prayer and Holy Cards at CatholicPrayerCards.org. The protestants believe that God just gives them grace whenever He wills it, sacraments or not. Semper_Fi_1 March 8, 2012, 11:26pm #1. But look more closely at what Paul is saying. Catholics … We saw that the books of the New Testament were not written until 65 years after Our Lord left the earth. Catholics, while affirming the importance of the Scriptures, do not view the Bible alone as sufficient for an understanding of revelation. Some regular users of the Forums welcomed user fees. As the 500th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation draws near, expect lots of people to be talking about the central pillar of the Reformation called sola fide, or justification by faith alone… CATHOLIC: Sure. There isn’t even the slightest suggestion that we should add something to Scripture. The last phrase of verse 10 is further defined by the first phrase of verse 11: “whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.” In other words, the content of these “sound words” is the gospel—the good news about Jesus that Christ himself had entrusted to Paul. Thank you all for your support over the years and God bless. CATHOLIC: It’s doctrinal or dogmatic Tradition—tradition with a big T—which every Catholic is required to believe because it is part of the deposit of faith. : Your distinction between the content of the gospel and the process by which it came down to us is curious. But the word that Paul uses here is, . In other words, it can be a necessary condition without being a sufficient one. 1 decade ago. : I don’t think that passage says exactly what you want it to say. Sometimes, the emphasis seems to fall on the activity of teaching, and at others on the content of what is taught. The Author. Today. Was it the same as the Scripture that Paul and his hearers had available to them at that time (i.e., the Old Testament)? He is the author of numerous … Was it the same as the Scripture that Paul and his hearers had available to them at that time (i.e., the Old Testament)? The Bible and tradition together are the font of God’s self-communication to humanity. Thus, today, all we need is Scripture. This last kind—Tradition as you call it—is an unwarranted addition to the simplicity of the gospel as found in the Bible. Take 2 Timothy 3:16–17, for example: “All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.”, : Yes, it’s normal to cite 2 Timothy 3:16–17 in arguing that Scripture alone is sufficient for the Christian today. Some find them helpful, others contentious, others find them addictive, and still others find some of the content not suited to an apologetics apostolate and some of the content better suited to private spiritual direction and sacramental confession. This is exactly the same thing that Paul urges in 2 Thessalonians 2:15, “So, then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”. CATHOLIC: Look at 1 Timothy 1:10–11 again. Hello all, I have been thinking a lot lately about switching to using the Douay-Rheims Bible alone. Paul exhorts them to hold on to his verbal teachings. These accepted books total 46 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament. We should hold on to all that the apostles taught, whether it came in writing or in verbal form. One of Martin Luther’s invented theories from the 16 th century was that “The Bible Alone” is all that is necessary to understand God’s Holy Word – No Pope, no Magesterium, no man, no … For you to maintain your position that Scripture is sufficient, you are forced to say that part of Paul’s exhortation in Scripture no longer applies. Our attempt to draw even a tenth of what they cost to operate through patronage was not successful. The Bible Alone? Doesnt Timothy 3:16-17, especially the part that I have bolded show that scripture alone is not only “profitable” but “sufficient”. OBJECTOR: That’s contrary to the Bible, which says that Scripture is sufficient for life and godliness. OBJECTOR: Oh, I agree. : I don’t see anywhere in the pastoral epistles where Paul appeals to Tradition. If it was, then the equation between these “sound words” and the Bible seems justified. There are some Christians out there who are “Bible alone” Christians. Mark P. Shea. Explore. It’s very clear to me now after reading the Catholic Answers sites you provided. : The Catholic Church believes that, in addition to the Bible, we need oral Tradition to know what the Bible teaches and to know the doctrines of the Christian faith that are not in the Bible, such as the Immaculate Conception of Mary. Posts: 24,032. In 2 Timothy 3:16, he uses the word ophelimos, which is closer to the meaning of “profitable” or “useful.” Something can be profitable without being sufficient. : Sure. OBJECTOR: Okay, I see your point. : Yes, and in 1 Timothy 4:13, Paul says, “Till I come, attend to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching, to teaching.” You see how Paul emphasizes the importance of Scripture in connection with that teaching. Family Life Center (2010). The Bible doesn’t say he was—but it doesn’t say he wasn’t. catholic answers forum –To me, in one limited respect, “bible alone” resembles some of the idols and false worship of the OT. The last phrase of verse 10 is further defined by the first phrase of verse 11: “whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.” In other words, the content of these “sound words” is the gospel—the good news about Jesus that Christ himself had entrusted to Paul. The book of Jude contains some of the most mysterious and intriguing passages in the New Testament.One occurs when Jude warns against a group of Christians who have given themselves over to immorality. Take Revelation 22:18, for example: “I warn every one who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If any one adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.” And 2 Timothy 3:16–17, which I quoted above, shows that it is Scripture that builds up the man of God, not human traditions, whether with a big T or and a little t. CATHOLIC: I don’t think that passage says exactly what you want it to say. Let's read James 2:24: “See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” Protestants say NO! You will agree, I am sure, that the writings we call the New Testament were not yet collected together as Scripture when Paul wrote his second letter to Timothy. I know … But before doing so, let me also clarify something about the nature of Tradition. It is a composite of holy Scripture that all doctrines of Christianity should be compared against. : So explain what you mean by “Tradition.”. Non-Catholic Religions . Bible’s position …Early Church’s position “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” John 10:27. It is God’s word handed down in verbal form from generation to generation. The Bible seems pretty clear that justification is by faith alone. My biblical concordance does not list any occurrences of the word tradition (paradosis) or the cognate verb for “to hand down” (paradidomi) in the pastoral epistles. The debate over “Bible Alone” doctrines all eventually boil down to debate over who has the authority to decide, both what is called Scripture and how Scripture should be interpreted. The inspired apostle says in essence to hold to the oral Tradition of the gospel that we have received. Introduction. GOd Bless You. Isn’t it an arbitrary distinction to say that one thing (content) applies while the other (process) does not? If you can agree to focus on this doctrinal Tradition for a moment, we can discuss its grounding in Scripture and history. Scripture is necessarybecause it is the written revelation of God himself. : Well, I don’t see Paul pointing Timothy and Titus to any verbal transmission. The Catholic Church stands alone and has done since the time Jesus founded it. So, I was curious, who all here uses just the DR as their main Bible for study and prayer? "The Bible Alone?" So when Paul speaks of Scripture in this verse, he is certainly referring to the Old Testament and not the entire Bible as we now have it. So when Paul speaks of Scripture in this verse, he is certainly referring to the Old Testament and not the entire Bible as we now have it. Our attempt to draw even a tenth of what they cost to operate through patronage was not successful. OBJECTOR: The exhortation applies to the content of Paul’s teaching, not to the process of verbal transmission. God’s word handed down in verbal form from generation to generation. of verbal transmission. So how can Paul be referring them to Tradition? Catholic way of viewing the Bible and Tradition. Lots of great Catholic links too. OBJECTOR: Yes, and in 1 Timothy 4:13, Paul says, “Till I come, attend to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching, to teaching.” You see how Paul emphasizes the importance of Scripture in connection with that teaching. There are some Christians out there who are “Bible alone” Christians. The Catholic Church regularly dispenses sanctifying grace through the sacraments. A message from the President of Catholic Answers Dear Members and Patrons of the Catholic Answers Forums. I want to show only that Paul also emphasizes the importance of his hearers holding to what was passed down verbally. The New Jerusalem Bible (NJB) is a Catholic translation of the Bible published in 1985. Even though I think the first kind of tradition is also detrimental to a Christian’s faith. : No, we shouldn’t add anything to God’s revelation. This is exactly what the Catholic Church believes we Christians should do. Catholic Bishops in: -Council of Rome (382 A.D.) wrote a list of the 73 books of the O.T. : The words for “tradition,” whether noun or verb, do not occur in these letters, but the. : Ask yourself what the content of these “sound words” or “sound teaching” was. Holy. It is still here proclaiming truth even in the face of hostility from all other Christian Dogmas. Course we must not roman catholic the new testament canon was meant by different books of scripture, as part of tradition and a council. Catholic Doctrine Catholic Answers Catholic Religion Catholic Quotes Catholic Prayers Bible Verse Memorization Bible Scriptures Bible Quotes Religious Education. 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